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	<title>Comments on: IE7 Hacks</title>
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		<title>By: Edward J. S. Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/comment-page-1/#comment-466</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward J. S. Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/#comment-466</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m not sure if I&#039;m really explaining myself well.  If by hacks we&#039;re saying using large margins on  tags to combat the the box model problem in IE 5 Win (which I don&#039;t really believe is a hack), then sure I&#039;ll do that.  Actually, forget about hacks.  I&#039;m just very frustrated by how things are shaping up with IE 7.  Yes, things aren&#039;t done yet and I pray that we end up with a far better result than Beta 2.  Here&#039;s what I see:

Using browser specific comments puts absolutely no further in the web standards world.  What is one of the most important points of web standards?  That we code &lt;em&gt;one&lt;/em&gt; page/file/whatever and the result is the same in every browser and thereby improving accessiblity, cross-platform rendering, and everything in between.  Browser specific code gets us nowhere.  It&#039;s the same path of logic as a hack.  And that makes me bitter.

Tantek nicely notes in &lt;a href=&quot;http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_11.html#a000592&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;his well-popularized WaSP post last November&lt;/a&gt; that &quot;CSS2(.1) doesn&#039;t say you can implement part of the spec. You&#039;re supposed to implement the whole spec in the first place.&quot;  This is exactly what IE 7 &lt;b&gt;must&lt;/b&gt; do.  I have trust in the IE 7 team that things will get sorted out.  The reason they&#039;re doing this extensive beta testing and opening themselves up to the war-mongering Microsoft haters is to improve their browser.  WaSP&#039;s work with them hasn&#039;t just been flushed...they&#039;re trying.  But as far as things have gone right now, I&#039;m unhappy.

None of the code we right should be considered hacks.  Because when a browser is advanced or &quot;modernized&quot; like IE 7 &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; be, then the site should look just fine because it has properly implemented the level of CSS that it set out to do.  I don&#039;t really see anything I write as a hack.  It&#039;s proper code, well within the specifications, and all validates.  As Tantek also noted, it&#039;s harder for a new comer into the standards based market.

To sum it up: &quot;Don&#039;t implement [an advanced] selector, until that browser is able to do so. IE5/Mac did so, so can IE7, more than five years later...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;m really explaining myself well.  If by hacks we&#8217;re saying using large margins on  tags to combat the the box model problem in IE 5 Win (which I don&#8217;t really believe is a hack), then sure I&#8217;ll do that.  Actually, forget about hacks.  I&#8217;m just very frustrated by how things are shaping up with IE 7.  Yes, things aren&#8217;t done yet and I pray that we end up with a far better result than Beta 2.  Here&#8217;s what I see:</p>
<p>Using browser specific comments puts absolutely no further in the web standards world.  What is one of the most important points of web standards?  That we code <em>one</em> page/file/whatever and the result is the same in every browser and thereby improving accessiblity, cross-platform rendering, and everything in between.  Browser specific code gets us nowhere.  It&#8217;s the same path of logic as a hack.  And that makes me bitter.</p>
<p>Tantek nicely notes in <a href="http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_11.html#a000592" rel="nofollow">his well-popularized WaSP post last November</a> that &#8220;CSS2(.1) doesn&#8217;t say you can implement part of the spec. You&#8217;re supposed to implement the whole spec in the first place.&#8221;  This is exactly what IE 7 <b>must</b> do.  I have trust in the IE 7 team that things will get sorted out.  The reason they&#8217;re doing this extensive beta testing and opening themselves up to the war-mongering Microsoft haters is to improve their browser.  WaSP&#8217;s work with them hasn&#8217;t just been flushed&#8230;they&#8217;re trying.  But as far as things have gone right now, I&#8217;m unhappy.</p>
<p>None of the code we right should be considered hacks.  Because when a browser is advanced or &#8220;modernized&#8221; like IE 7 <em>should</em> be, then the site should look just fine because it has properly implemented the level of CSS that it set out to do.  I don&#8217;t really see anything I write as a hack.  It&#8217;s proper code, well within the specifications, and all validates.  As Tantek also noted, it&#8217;s harder for a new comer into the standards based market.</p>
<p>To sum it up: &#8220;Don&#8217;t implement [an advanced] selector, until that browser is able to do so. IE5/Mac did so, so can IE7, more than five years later&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: brian rountree</title>
		<link>http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/comment-page-1/#comment-465</link>
		<dc:creator>brian rountree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/#comment-465</guid>
		<description>Edward wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I won’t be using hacks, but I will be using valid CSS of any supported level. If the IE users get less of an experience, it’s the browsers fault…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually, if the user gets a degraded experience, when workarounds exist. . . then it is not the browser&#039;s fault, it is yours. Hiding behind the &quot;I don&#039;t do hacks&quot; argument is great if you have 10 people viewing your site and all of them use FF or Safari. But hey, you keep up that great browser snob attitude. . . .  It lets the rest of us who simply build better sites that work in all browsers get more work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>I won’t be using hacks, but I will be using valid CSS of any supported level. If the IE users get less of an experience, it’s the browsers fault…</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, if the user gets a degraded experience, when workarounds exist. . . then it is not the browser&#8217;s fault, it is yours. Hiding behind the &#8220;I don&#8217;t do hacks&#8221; argument is great if you have 10 people viewing your site and all of them use FF or Safari. But hey, you keep up that great browser snob attitude. . . .  It lets the rest of us who simply build better sites that work in all browsers get more work.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Los textos de qweos.net&#187; Blog Archive &#187; Internet Explorer 7 beta 2</title>
		<link>http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/comment-page-1/#comment-463</link>
		<dc:creator>Los textos de qweos.net&#187; Blog Archive &#187; Internet Explorer 7 beta 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2006 09:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/#comment-463</guid>
		<description>[...] Actualización del 4 de febrero de 2006: también se habla sobre los primeros trucos para engañar al navegador. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Actualización del 4 de febrero de 2006: también se habla sobre los primeros trucos para engañar al navegador. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Edward J. S. Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/comment-page-1/#comment-462</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward J. S. Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdrake.net/ie7-hacks/#comment-462</guid>
		<description>But isn&#039;t the browser specific code exactly what we don&#039;t want?  Isn&#039;t that the point of web standards?  I won&#039;t be using hacks, but I will be using valid CSS of any supported level.  If the IE users get less of an experience, it&#039;s the browsers fault...I&#039;m just not convinced on the browser specific comments since it seems completely counter-intuitive to what the professional design community has been moving towards for many a year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But isn&#8217;t the browser specific code exactly what we don&#8217;t want?  Isn&#8217;t that the point of web standards?  I won&#8217;t be using hacks, but I will be using valid CSS of any supported level.  If the IE users get less of an experience, it&#8217;s the browsers fault&#8230;I&#8217;m just not convinced on the browser specific comments since it seems completely counter-intuitive to what the professional design community has been moving towards for many a year.</p>
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